On the surface everyone say's, Why not just stay with the DVR from the cable company? Let's take a quick look at that first you have to get the DVR or Card from the Cable company in that way we are still beholden to them especially since BY LAW it's all Digital.
Genrally a DVR will only take care of one room (some now will do two rooms) for a Cost of about $10.00 (depending on your provider)
and if you wanted a second one it is approx. $20.00 more a month. So, for two box's you are up to $30.00 a month just for the set top box's and if you are like most people today you have more than two Monitors (TV'S) in your home. And if you out fitted each one with a DVR at a cost of $20.00 each what would that cost you a month?
Now, Take the ATI TV Wonder Digital TV Tuner with one cable card
and put it on the network in your home how many of your Monitor/Tv's would now have DVR capablities not to mention all, the channels that the one or two DVR's you orginally you had all off your network which not only would you be able to watch at home but some of you real tech savey people out there would even be watching from the road.
So, I say why would I not want this tech in my home where in the long run ( short run as well ) it will save me a ton of money that I won't have to be paying to the cable company. Yes, There would be some set up cost in the begining but I figure that I would get that back with in the first year. well that's my two cent's worth thanks for taken the time. I'm sure if you look at it you will find more reasons if you wanted to to go with it as well.
I just saw http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070405-cabl...">this article go up at Ars Technica. AMD has announced that they have discovered a bug with a specific Scientific Atlanta cablecard is causing issues with their OCUR device. Maybe Anandtech's problems are rooted there?
I just read a review the other day on the Niveus systems. These look a heck of a lot better than this system reviewed here and the channel changing was quick and flawless.
I have to say, this review was excellently written, but it dashed all the dreams I had about running a media server. I had envisioned having one PC hooked up to my cable, recording QAM broadcasts, and then distributing them on the fly to any networked device in my house. (I was actually considering purchasing an Xbox 360 for just this purpose--well, that and Gears of War.) But this sounds absolutely ridiculous--any content I try to record or stream is locked down in every conceivable way. Why are they so goddamned concerned with what I do with my media? If it's broadcast OTA, and I paid for it, just let it go. Don't try and control it after it gets to my house, too.
I was really excited about using Vista Ultimate's Media Center to stream video and whatnot; it really looked like a simple, attractive interface. Now it looks like it's back to Kubuntu and XBMC.
Can Vista's Media Center stream downloaded material to an Xbox 360? For example, if I were to download episodes of a publicly available program (say Prison Break, for example) in HD, could I then stream it to the X360?
I tend to agree with this. The problem with configuration of these type of components is you have separate proprietary parties controlling them. OTA broadcast,or Cable in the anolog areana,did not personify 'illegal distribution'. The VCR what it is and was,being nothing more than a recording.To the person making it.
With DMCA,these parties become 'liable'in no ending concerns.Via closed off agreements pertaining to the systems volitility.Something RIAA,and MPAA continue to exploit- the reach of communicative systems,and thus their control in continuation of them,on their terms.
I had looked into a Radio Shack catalog one time,and you could for example,take your analog signal,through the RCA connector,and have the whole homes systems receive the video.And sound.
But with the digital stuff,the whole that makes up the parts,is something of a legal partition in consideration of whatever reach a device can be conductive too.Nevermind the usefullness of them.That would be in the terms and agreements.
_________________
I had at first wanted to note that of the problems people are going to have since of course they are going to want to upgrade their processors.Here we are not in technical terms.But yet again going to what legal terms make up their composition. When the leverage is on the proprietary nature,rather than the usefulness of the technology.
Dominoes in missing identity.
Why USB 2.0 instead of firewire?
I believe firewire would have been a better choice for an HD TV tuner. Firewire 800 doesn't seem too common right now (firewire 400 being more common). Since Dell has total control of their PC design: why not include 2 firewire 800 ports. And use those instead of USB 2.0 ports for the external AMD TV tuner. Making for less bottleneck when using a USB mouse & keyboard. Not to mention external USB 2.0 hard drives, etc.
The more I read about this stuff, the more I realize the combination of the content industry and MS are shooting themselves in the foot with all the restrictions. This platform will never go anywhere if people have to jump through all sorts of hoops and end up having all sorts of issues and restrictions. They'll just get the HD DVR from their cable company and be done with it.
The only reason to go with an HTPC over a regular cable-company HD DVR is to add flexibility -- and all the DRM restrictions have pretty much nixed the flexibility aspect already. For example, you can't burn something and take it over to a buddy's house for viewing. So how is this better than the regular DVR? It's a little shinier in terms of the interface, but otherwise is the same (except it doesn't work as well).
Nope, this thing is dead in the water, MS will not own the living room anytime soon....
Thank you for this article Anand. When you first reviewed Vista, i asked for a review of its MCE component, to which you replied such an article was comming. I was beginning to think you forgot about writing that article! :D
I am in the shrinking majority of non HDTV owners. I have a 32in Sony CRT TV that ive had for at least 10 years. Its still one of the best looking TV's around, in my opinion. I use MCE to function as a recorder so that I dont have to pay a monthly fee to anyone. I feel thats ridiculous. I bought a $50 ATI TV card and with MCE, can do everything a TIVO can, AND save money, AND burn what programing i want and give it to who i want.
I have one big question i wanted to ask, however. Did you try Vista Media Centers multi screen performance? I use Svideo to connect my TV and computer, and i enjoy working on one screen while having MCE going in the other. However, MCE 2k5's performance in this situation is pretty bad, and the MCE team itself admitted that they hadnt thought of this scenario.
So let me get this straight the ONLY people that really want OCUR (people with media center PCs) will be the ones that can't get it? WTH! Bad enough you need HDCP monitors and Video cards, but even when you do upgrade everything it still won't be enough until you buy a ready made box (and if you have a HTPC that is used as a Media PC then it is probably DIY). So the people that this things is going to marketed to will be people that 1)Have no idea it exists 2)Don't/Won't want it 3)Apparently will be better served to pay $10 a month to rent something that will "just work". I have a MCE2005 pc, and it looks pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing: HD-DVR here I come.
Also, besides a rant I had a question. What if you have ONE HDCP compliant monitor(HDTV) and one non HDCP LCD (that doesn't merit replacement yet). Will it still work and let you play the content on the TV? Or will the non hdcp monitor "break" the compliance and thus the functionality.
That wasn't mentioned in the article. In two years I'll have to get some sort of ATSC replacement for my NTSC-only S2 Tivo.
Also-is this for real that you can't burn real DVDs with this setup? I presume that means you can't even copy files to another computer to watch (only stream them to a 360)?
In that case this doesn't work for me. Hope there are more ATSC solutions available by the time I need them...
Your #1 mistake was activating the card on a different device first. This caused you major problems. The mating of the card to a particular device is not a time-warner only thing. Had you not made this pretty dumb move you wouldn't have had Dell, ATI and Time Warner dancing around like monkeys for so many days.
The problem switching between SD and HD is most likely a server issue at the cable company. Unfortunately "that guy" who is smart enough to fix it is so far up the food chain you'll never reach him through the mass of standard techs.
How do I know this? Go check out the Support forums over at Tivo. The problems are everywhere. The series 3 has dual cable cards and guess what? Cable companies give it fits. In every case the cable company will push back and say it's a problem with your device. In every case this turns out not to be true.
I ran into many of the issues you are seeing with my Series 3 Tivo. After like 4 cable cards, 5 trips from techs, pulling my hair until I was bald I finally got "the guy" who said it was merely a server issue on their end. No problems since.
So as a Kubuntu Linux user, on a PC built from parts, and "soon to be owner" of a PS3, I feel a little left out of the party. Seriously, the amount of restrictions for a system to do this is ridiculous and makes me want to vomit.
I happen to have a Windows XP running Beyond TV DVR software (it's NTSC only unfortunately). But I'm able to share my media folder and access it from Windows PCs, Linux PCs, and even both XBox systems when they run XBox Media Center. It works FANTASTIC! Even my wife can stream content and watch it on an XBox without any issues or help. Once I get a Creative Vision M, I can easily move my non-DRM files unencumbered to my portable video player. I'm also able to burn DVDs of shows I really enjoyed so I can watch them later on my DVD/DivX player.
As long as the content providers are allowed to dictate how and where we watch their content, these products will always be a pain in the ass to setup and use.
Still waiting on the CES 2006 announced DirecTV / MCE tuners.
This article was not at all interesting for me personally. Oh, the tech end of it was, and the fact that AMD/MS/Hollywood/the cable industry can't work well as a group was interesting. But since the technology itself is not available to me unless I buy an expensicve Dell (or equivalent), I really don't care about it. I'll continue to go along using my Cox HD-DVR and be happy. Actually, if I do want to do something like this I'll simply rent a Cox HD cable box and plug it into my ATI 650 based tuner card (which has HD support) or my X1900 AIW (which accepts HD input). So for the price of the Cox rental I can have HD on my PC, and for far less money. Then again, the way MS and the cable industry are going, I can't be sure that would work. Oh well, guess I'll have to continue using the Firewire out on my HD-DVR to copy movies to my wife's notebook, then my desktop. It's a pain, but it's cheap and easy. My dad's new HD-DVR is also a cable modem. I wonder if it can be networked? Wouldn't that be nice?
Uh.. I don't think you understand how these things work. The only inputs on the 650 & AIW are composite and S-video. Neither is going to allow you to record anything in HD from your cable box. The HD support on the 650 is only for OTA.
I was amused by the choice in movies. After all, who wouldn't want to check out "Boinking in the Dorm Room" at work? With a title like that, I'm sure it's a cinematic masterpiece.
Agreed. While I have nothing but distaste for this hardware, its related metric assload of DRM tie-ins, and lack of DIY support, I enjoyed reading the review of it immensely.
"why on earth would you go through this when you can just rent an HD-DVR from us for $9 a month?"
I think this pretty much sums up the entire system to begin with. It really does make me wonder if the unholy alliance (read: MPAA/RIAA/Cable/Telco) is making the use of CableCard-based devices more difficult than it needs to be. The number of people that were called on-site just to resolve the multiple issues is a rather telling statement that while the tech may be great it is being set up to fail in the marketplace.
And why was there no provision for HDMI input? I mean, it was designed with HDCP encryption in mind so I would have thought this would have been a no-brainer but if I had to guess I would say the unholy alliance shot that idea down real quick. -_-
Cable companies are required by the FCC to provide cable cards upon request. However, it's pretty obvious they make it as difficult as possible to get them up and running ($42.95 install fee?).
I hope the person incharge of this project reads this because he needs to get up his lazy ass and start sloving these issue by getting the right dude to slove this problems. Then ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner + VISTA MCE will succeed or Hollywood could just kill DRM which would make life easier on their loyal customer.
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29 Comments
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Terrbo40 - Friday, April 17, 2009 - link
On the surface everyone say's, Why not just stay with the DVR from the cable company? Let's take a quick look at that first you have to get the DVR or Card from the Cable company in that way we are still beholden to them especially since BY LAW it's all Digital.Genrally a DVR will only take care of one room (some now will do two rooms) for a Cost of about $10.00 (depending on your provider)
and if you wanted a second one it is approx. $20.00 more a month. So, for two box's you are up to $30.00 a month just for the set top box's and if you are like most people today you have more than two Monitors (TV'S) in your home. And if you out fitted each one with a DVR at a cost of $20.00 each what would that cost you a month?
Now, Take the ATI TV Wonder Digital TV Tuner with one cable card
and put it on the network in your home how many of your Monitor/Tv's would now have DVR capablities not to mention all, the channels that the one or two DVR's you orginally you had all off your network which not only would you be able to watch at home but some of you real tech savey people out there would even be watching from the road.
So, I say why would I not want this tech in my home where in the long run ( short run as well ) it will save me a ton of money that I won't have to be paying to the cable company. Yes, There would be some set up cost in the begining but I figure that I would get that back with in the first year. well that's my two cent's worth thanks for taken the time. I'm sure if you look at it you will find more reasons if you wanted to to go with it as well.
verndewd - Friday, April 6, 2007 - link
Bugs or not its a killer idea. They will work it out and everyone will want one.I want one.Araemo - Thursday, April 5, 2007 - link
I just saw http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070405-cabl...">this article go up at Ars Technica. AMD has announced that they have discovered a bug with a specific Scientific Atlanta cablecard is causing issues with their OCUR device. Maybe Anandtech's problems are rooted there?PAPutzback - Thursday, April 5, 2007 - link
I just read a review the other day on the Niveus systems. These look a heck of a lot better than this system reviewed here and the channel changing was quick and flawless.http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/excl...">http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-enterta...quipped-...
Perhaps Anandtech can get one of these systems for a review
DigitalFreak - Thursday, April 5, 2007 - link
http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/05/ati-stops-shipp...">Linkhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/04/05/ati-stops-shipp...phil2cool - Thursday, April 5, 2007 - link
Any of you guys take the card out of the box and stick it in a PCIe slot?? Would be interesting to see what the system would do.TrueWisdom - Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - link
I have to say, this review was excellently written, but it dashed all the dreams I had about running a media server. I had envisioned having one PC hooked up to my cable, recording QAM broadcasts, and then distributing them on the fly to any networked device in my house. (I was actually considering purchasing an Xbox 360 for just this purpose--well, that and Gears of War.) But this sounds absolutely ridiculous--any content I try to record or stream is locked down in every conceivable way. Why are they so goddamned concerned with what I do with my media? If it's broadcast OTA, and I paid for it, just let it go. Don't try and control it after it gets to my house, too.I was really excited about using Vista Ultimate's Media Center to stream video and whatnot; it really looked like a simple, attractive interface. Now it looks like it's back to Kubuntu and XBMC.
Can Vista's Media Center stream downloaded material to an Xbox 360? For example, if I were to download episodes of a publicly available program (say Prison Break, for example) in HD, could I then stream it to the X360?
Tujan - Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - link
I tend to agree with this. The problem with configuration of these type of components is you have separate proprietary parties controlling them. OTA broadcast,or Cable in the anolog areana,did not personify 'illegal distribution'. The VCR what it is and was,being nothing more than a recording.To the person making it.With DMCA,these parties become 'liable'in no ending concerns.Via closed off agreements pertaining to the systems volitility.Something RIAA,and MPAA continue to exploit- the reach of communicative systems,and thus their control in continuation of them,on their terms.
I had looked into a Radio Shack catalog one time,and you could for example,take your analog signal,through the RCA connector,and have the whole homes systems receive the video.And sound.
But with the digital stuff,the whole that makes up the parts,is something of a legal partition in consideration of whatever reach a device can be conductive too.Nevermind the usefullness of them.That would be in the terms and agreements.
_________________
I had at first wanted to note that of the problems people are going to have since of course they are going to want to upgrade their processors.Here we are not in technical terms.But yet again going to what legal terms make up their composition. When the leverage is on the proprietary nature,rather than the usefulness of the technology.
Dominoes in missing identity.
vailr - Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - link
Why USB 2.0 instead of firewire?I believe firewire would have been a better choice for an HD TV tuner. Firewire 800 doesn't seem too common right now (firewire 400 being more common). Since Dell has total control of their PC design: why not include 2 firewire 800 ports. And use those instead of USB 2.0 ports for the external AMD TV tuner. Making for less bottleneck when using a USB mouse & keyboard. Not to mention external USB 2.0 hard drives, etc.
tagej - Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - link
As usual Anand did a great job with this review.The more I read about this stuff, the more I realize the combination of the content industry and MS are shooting themselves in the foot with all the restrictions. This platform will never go anywhere if people have to jump through all sorts of hoops and end up having all sorts of issues and restrictions. They'll just get the HD DVR from their cable company and be done with it.
The only reason to go with an HTPC over a regular cable-company HD DVR is to add flexibility -- and all the DRM restrictions have pretty much nixed the flexibility aspect already. For example, you can't burn something and take it over to a buddy's house for viewing. So how is this better than the regular DVR? It's a little shinier in terms of the interface, but otherwise is the same (except it doesn't work as well).
Nope, this thing is dead in the water, MS will not own the living room anytime soon....
n7 - Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - link
I am amazed at how restricted this is.I was looking forward to the day when i could get a tuner capable of high def support to add to my PC.
And now i see that the once again, the consumers are basically getting royally ******.
I'm incredibly disapppointed.
Thanx very much for this article though...does an excellent job of showing just how retarded DRM has become...
Cygni - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Thank you for this article Anand. When you first reviewed Vista, i asked for a review of its MCE component, to which you replied such an article was comming. I was beginning to think you forgot about writing that article! :DI am in the shrinking majority of non HDTV owners. I have a 32in Sony CRT TV that ive had for at least 10 years. Its still one of the best looking TV's around, in my opinion. I use MCE to function as a recorder so that I dont have to pay a monthly fee to anyone. I feel thats ridiculous. I bought a $50 ATI TV card and with MCE, can do everything a TIVO can, AND save money, AND burn what programing i want and give it to who i want.
I have one big question i wanted to ask, however. Did you try Vista Media Centers multi screen performance? I use Svideo to connect my TV and computer, and i enjoy working on one screen while having MCE going in the other. However, MCE 2k5's performance in this situation is pretty bad, and the MCE team itself admitted that they hadnt thought of this scenario.
feraltoad - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
So let me get this straight the ONLY people that really want OCUR (people with media center PCs) will be the ones that can't get it? WTH! Bad enough you need HDCP monitors and Video cards, but even when you do upgrade everything it still won't be enough until you buy a ready made box (and if you have a HTPC that is used as a Media PC then it is probably DIY). So the people that this things is going to marketed to will be people that 1)Have no idea it exists 2)Don't/Won't want it 3)Apparently will be better served to pay $10 a month to rent something that will "just work". I have a MCE2005 pc, and it looks pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing: HD-DVR here I come.Also, besides a rant I had a question. What if you have ONE HDCP compliant monitor(HDTV) and one non HDCP LCD (that doesn't merit replacement yet). Will it still work and let you play the content on the TV? Or will the non hdcp monitor "break" the compliance and thus the functionality.
thestain - Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - link
AMD's kissing Microsofts rear is a recipe for an american made disaster.Is there no hardware company that is willing to give customers ownership of the hardware they buy anymore??
AMD/Daamit would do better getting the cpus and gpus out that have been delayed and delayed.. or nVidia and Intel will destroy AMD.
Wolfpup - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
That wasn't mentioned in the article. In two years I'll have to get some sort of ATSC replacement for my NTSC-only S2 Tivo.Also-is this for real that you can't burn real DVDs with this setup? I presume that means you can't even copy files to another computer to watch (only stream them to a 360)?
In that case this doesn't work for me. Hope there are more ATSC solutions available by the time I need them...
Smilin - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Your #1 mistake was activating the card on a different device first. This caused you major problems. The mating of the card to a particular device is not a time-warner only thing. Had you not made this pretty dumb move you wouldn't have had Dell, ATI and Time Warner dancing around like monkeys for so many days.The problem switching between SD and HD is most likely a server issue at the cable company. Unfortunately "that guy" who is smart enough to fix it is so far up the food chain you'll never reach him through the mass of standard techs.
How do I know this? Go check out the Support forums over at Tivo. The problems are everywhere. The series 3 has dual cable cards and guess what? Cable companies give it fits. In every case the cable company will push back and say it's a problem with your device. In every case this turns out not to be true.
I ran into many of the issues you are seeing with my Series 3 Tivo. After like 4 cable cards, 5 trips from techs, pulling my hair until I was bald I finally got "the guy" who said it was merely a server issue on their end. No problems since.
mwales - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
So as a Kubuntu Linux user, on a PC built from parts, and "soon to be owner" of a PS3, I feel a little left out of the party. Seriously, the amount of restrictions for a system to do this is ridiculous and makes me want to vomit.I happen to have a Windows XP running Beyond TV DVR software (it's NTSC only unfortunately). But I'm able to share my media folder and access it from Windows PCs, Linux PCs, and even both XBox systems when they run XBox Media Center. It works FANTASTIC! Even my wife can stream content and watch it on an XBox without any issues or help. Once I get a Creative Vision M, I can easily move my non-DRM files unencumbered to my portable video player. I'm also able to burn DVDs of shows I really enjoyed so I can watch them later on my DVD/DivX player.
DigitalFreak - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
As long as the content providers are allowed to dictate how and where we watch their content, these products will always be a pain in the ass to setup and use.Still waiting on the CES 2006 announced DirecTV / MCE tuners.
michal1980 - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
i'd get that 4000 grand pc if it came with all the techs to help set it up.cable card needs bi-directional support before it gets my vote though.
BPB - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
This article was not at all interesting for me personally. Oh, the tech end of it was, and the fact that AMD/MS/Hollywood/the cable industry can't work well as a group was interesting. But since the technology itself is not available to me unless I buy an expensicve Dell (or equivalent), I really don't care about it. I'll continue to go along using my Cox HD-DVR and be happy. Actually, if I do want to do something like this I'll simply rent a Cox HD cable box and plug it into my ATI 650 based tuner card (which has HD support) or my X1900 AIW (which accepts HD input). So for the price of the Cox rental I can have HD on my PC, and for far less money. Then again, the way MS and the cable industry are going, I can't be sure that would work. Oh well, guess I'll have to continue using the Firewire out on my HD-DVR to copy movies to my wife's notebook, then my desktop. It's a pain, but it's cheap and easy. My dad's new HD-DVR is also a cable modem. I wonder if it can be networked? Wouldn't that be nice?DigitalFreak - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Uh.. I don't think you understand how these things work. The only inputs on the 650 & AIW are composite and S-video. Neither is going to allow you to record anything in HD from your cable box. The HD support on the 650 is only for OTA.BPB - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
You know, until now I thought the AIW X1900 had YPrPb input. Man, I need to wake up!TheTerl - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
I was amused by the choice in movies. After all, who wouldn't want to check out "Boinking in the Dorm Room" at work? With a title like that, I'm sure it's a cinematic masterpiece.Aside from that, very interesting article.
DigitalFreak - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Thing is, it may show up in the guide, but you can't actually order it... :0)WileCoyote - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Only Anand can turn an article I would normally ingore into a fun and interesting read. Good stuff!MercenaryForHire - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Agreed. While I have nothing but distaste for this hardware, its related metric assload of DRM tie-ins, and lack of DIY support, I enjoyed reading the review of it immensely.pjladyfox - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
"why on earth would you go through this when you can just rent an HD-DVR from us for $9 a month?"I think this pretty much sums up the entire system to begin with. It really does make me wonder if the unholy alliance (read: MPAA/RIAA/Cable/Telco) is making the use of CableCard-based devices more difficult than it needs to be. The number of people that were called on-site just to resolve the multiple issues is a rather telling statement that while the tech may be great it is being set up to fail in the marketplace.
And why was there no provision for HDMI input? I mean, it was designed with HDCP encryption in mind so I would have thought this would have been a no-brainer but if I had to guess I would say the unholy alliance shot that idea down real quick. -_-
DigitalFreak - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
Cable companies are required by the FCC to provide cable cards upon request. However, it's pretty obvious they make it as difficult as possible to get them up and running ($42.95 install fee?).tuteja1986 - Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - link
I hope the person incharge of this project reads this because he needs to get up his lazy ass and start sloving these issue by getting the right dude to slove this problems. Then ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner + VISTA MCE will succeed or Hollywood could just kill DRM which would make life easier on their loyal customer.