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  • :nudge> - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    So Z3N it hurts
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    It's also Lisa Su's anniversary as CEO. You know they are going for a power play if they associate her directly and it's on her leadership anniversary.
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Over 100,000 watching the YouTube stream alone. Wow.
  • Shii - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Saw it peak up at 135k, pretty crazy
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Especially considering this is a CPU company and this is generally a technical heavy subject that does not attract the masses. Historic.
  • nathanddrews - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    AMD commands the attention of professionals, HPC, PCMR, and console peasants. That's basically everyone in the world except mobile phone gamers.
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    While I was expecting Zen 3 to flow past expectation, I am underwhelmed by the RX 6000 series. 61 fps in Borderlands 3 maxed out means it is slower: 5% slower than the RTX 3080 (65 fps) and 20% slower than the RTX 3090 (76 fps). So close and yet so far. The point is beating the competition, not coming close.
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Here is where I got my numbers for Borderlands 3 for the RTX 3000 series at 4K:

    https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-...
  • kavanoz - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    You forgot to put your correction here :)
  • silverblue - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Looks like the 3080 and Big Navi are tied in this title (though PCWorld report 66 fps for the 3080 here). In Gears of War 5, Big Navi is 8 fps behind, though TechSpot (who use a Ryzen 9 3950X system) has a 1 fps win for Big Navi. I can't find much on Modern Warfare except for GPU Check where the 3080 is clearly ahead with 123 fps vs 88 fps, which is 4 fps behind the 2080 Ti. So, it's looking rather like a 3070 rival at the moment and some games really need some optimisation, but it's early days. Note that AMD didn't tip their hand as regards ray-tracing.
  • silverblue - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Modern Warfare apparently doesn't have a standardised benchmark (thanks Ryan), so I think we can ignore this.
  • Tewt - Monday, October 12, 2020 - link

    ehh, considering AMD's past performance in video cards, I would say this is a win for them. They are at least in the same ballpark this time and not having to pump insane watts just to gain a couple fps. Even better if they beat Nvidia on price.
  • prophet001 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    This is pretty exciting.

    Why does AMD keep using the same socket though? Seems like you're inevitably forced to make sacrifices for the sake of keeping the same pin-out. That doesn't seem worth it.
  • charlesg - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Probably to differentiate themselves from the 'other' group who requires a new motherboard just about every new processor.

    While it is handy to be able to upgrade the CPU on your MB, I have to admit I do it far less than I thought I would. I build for the future and I find myself replacing almost the entire system after a number of years.

    That said ... because this next zen gen will likely work in my B450, I'm seriously considering upgrading my 2700x.
  • Olaf van der Spek - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    It's not like any AM4 CPU will work in any AM4 board.. compatibility is quite limited.
    Intel's approach is at least more understandable.

    I've upgraded a CPU once, from Pentium MMX 200 to K6-2 400. In hindsight, I should've bought a new motherboard.
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    "It's not like any AM4 CPU will work in any AM4 board"

    You keep telling yourself that...I'm running a 3950X on X370 (Asrock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming)! I have no problems and run all cores @ 4.4Ghz and never exceed 70 degrees C, and I use my CPU for video encoding, and my system is on 24/7!

    "compatibility is quite limited"

    So, no it isn't, but your knowledge base could maybe do with an upgrade?

    "Intel's approach is at least more understandable"

    Yes, fleece you, then fleece you some more. At least since 2014!
  • Dahak - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    its is a bit limited as there is only so much room for microcode for the cpus. Forget which launch it was but one the the recent chipsets they are removing alot of old cpus to allow support for the new ones

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12971/amd-bios-limi...
    That is just some
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yes the BIOS size was a limiting factor in some of the cheeper X370/B350 boards, and that meant they couldn't squeeze in all the microcode of all the CPUs if the board partner wanted to keep their UEFI graphics and logos. Not an AMD fault...

    In reality, all X370 boards will accept all Zen+ CPUS, allof them. Thats every Zen 1*** & every Zen 2*** CPU. Thats what, how many dozens and dozens of CPUs released over two/three years.

    Most of the boards that had limited BIOS sizes, also had crappy VRM's, so couldn't accept a 3900 or 3950X, regardless of BIOS, and some would struggle with a 3800 or even a 3700.

    But that's the fault of the consumer. If you buy the cheapest board money can buy, you can't really reasonably complain it won't run the most expensive CPUs released years later, can you. Thats the same reason why AMD limited PI gen 4 to X570. Many X370 boards would happilly run itm, but the cheaper ones wouldn't. So rather than have a lenghtyspec sheet of wht boards will run what CPUs and at what PCI speeds, its easier to just have cut-off at the platform level...

    It all comes down to people buying crap, and expecting it to work as if it were the most expensive... Ill informed consumers, what you go'na do?
  • dotjaz - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    >"It's not like any AM4 CPU will work in any AM4 board"

    >You keep telling yourself that...I'm running a 3950X

    So WHEN Ryzen 5000 inevitably won't work on my B350 MoBo, you owe me a new one, would you?
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Where in any marketing did AMD say that they would support launch gen, and then the following three gens after that? They didn't! They said they would support 3 generations of CPU, way more then Intel!

    Like I said:

    "It all comes down to people buying crap, and expecting it to work as if it were the most expensive... Ill informed consumers, what you go'na do?"
  • Banggugyangu - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Wait... You upgraded from an Intel pentium to an AMD K6-II on the same motherboard?
  • Olaf van der Spek - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yes?
  • DaniMolina - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    If my memory is still working somewhat OK... both of them used the same socket... Was it socket 7 maybe?
  • HardwareDufus - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I went all the way to AMD K6-III+ on a board that started with a Centaur X86 clone. I can't remember exactly as it was some time ago... But it was an odd HX board that supported a 83Mhz fsb.... Yeah.... we got allot of mileage out of Socket7
  • HardwareDufus - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    It's just in those days we were seeing big leaps everytime someone released a new CPU... That changed with CoreDuo.... were we've had 10+ years of small changes with each generation...
  • Olaf van der Spek - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I had a Chaintech 5TDM2: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Wait & ETF... You don't understand CPU platforms?
  • GeoffreyA - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Pentium, K6-2, and some Cyrix CPUs all used Socket 7. But, if I remember right, the voltage was a bit of a murky point, the K6-2 using two types of voltages or something like that. I could be wrong though. And if I'm not mistaken, the K6-III also fitted on Socket 7 and gained a lot from the cache one could put on the motherboard. I've still got my Pentium 166 to this day, with 512 KB of cache slotted into the motherboard, and 48 MB of EDO RAM. Not sure if it works though.
  • Slash3 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    IBM 486DLC2/3: "There are dozens of us!"
  • Slash3 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    (Although not Socket 7, I just like making people look up that CPU. It's a weird one)
  • GeoffreyA - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Looked it up now. Quite interesting. "Blue Lightning" they called it, if I didn't mix up the models. Ah, the old days of computers!
  • carewolf - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yeah, they all used the same sockets back then, before Intel figured out they could patent the socket to stop anybody from making drop in replacements.
  • mrvco - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    The occasional and infrequent exception to the rule is preferable to changing the rule entirely and requiring a fork-lift upgrade at nearly every opportunity.
  • BlakeCz - Friday, October 9, 2020 - link

    I am sorry for being a nitpicker, but if your motherboard at that time had supported an upgrade from P-MMX-200 to K6-2 400, I guess it must had been with either Ali Aladin7 or VIA MVP3/MVP4 chipset. There were no significant differences neither in performance nor in features between those- as far as I can recall (I myself was upgrading from Cyrix M2 to K6-2 450 on Ali 7 board... those were the days...), What would had brought you a new motherboard then :-) ?
  • philehidiot - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yeh I agree with you. The idea that you can is great but practically for me it hasn't happened. By the time I considered a CPU upgrade, so much had moved on that I'd probably have upgraded the moho anyway, regardless of compatibility.

    The counter arguments to that are first (and foremost) that continued compatibility gives people on smaller budgets (or who have a good enough CPU now anyway) the chance to buy a stopgap (or use an existing) CPU, facilitate an upgrade and then replace the CPU at a later date. That's great.

    The other argument is that CPU life cycles had been extended artificially because of Intel sandbagging and a lack of competition. It may well be that a resurgent AMD may present us with reasons to upgrade CPUs more frequently by providing real improvements and enabling us to do that on the same mobo makes it far more likely that we will.

    I remember upgrading CPUs every couple of years back in the day. I've only recently ditched Haswell and DDR3 and it was the bloody side channel exploit mitigations that killed it.

    Had AMD not brought out Zen and given me a good reason to upgrade, I would have seriously resented paying Intel for a new CPU thanks to meltdown / spectre.
  • justaviking - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Waaay back in the day, back before the days of electricity and my CPU was steam powered, upgrading to a new version of Windows would often be a reason to upgrade to a new CPU. There simply wasn't a lot of spare power available, and the newer software would be very sluggish on a CPU that was a generation or two old. Things like new CODEC support, such as built-in instructions for handling MP4 streams via hardware rather than software would also be a reason to upgrade to a new CPU.

    Then came the day when CPU power grew faster than the demands placed on it, and you had enough spare horsepower to survive the demands placed on it with newer software.

    Of course there are enthusiasts who always push their system to the limits, but for quite a few years now I believe MOST people are have a far greater need to upgrade their graphics card every year or two but can live with their CPU for 5 or 6 years (or more) without much trouble.
  • SkyDiver - Sunday, October 11, 2020 - link

    I was shocked to realize that it has been 8 years since I built my current PC. I overclocked my Intel 3570-K to 4.1 and it worked fine through 2019. Admittedly, my gaming performance has taken a hit in 2020. Now I'm going to build an AMD machine.
  • mrvco - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I'd say Zen3 backwards compatibility is a great opportunity for anyone with an existing Zen-based system. Why? Because of what's on the horizon, i.e. a new socket, DDR5, etc. Unfortunately I'm coming upgrading an older pre-Zen Intel CPU and a new mobo is mandatory for any upgrade path.
  • Hifihedgehog - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    It's true: most buyers including myself swap out the motherboard and CPU with each new build. That said, I just saw the latest sales for a major European PC supplier, and 1 in 3 of their CPU sales do not include a motherboard. So while most DIY builders will continue unilaterally upgrading all their components, the long-term support and compatibility of the AM4 socket has definitely enabled many to stretch their dollar by keeping the same motherboard.
  • Marlin1975 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    "most buyers"

    What are you basing that off of? I upgraded my CPU 2 times, 3 cpus, on my old intel system and my current AMD system will get at least 2 changes, maybe 3 cpus as well.
  • Operandi - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Probably basing it off what 'most people' do, not what you do...?

    That said I'm glad AMD designed a good platform and socket and are continuing to support it. I've done CPU upgrades in the past with the first Athlon (socket A I think?) and Athlon 64 and this level of support feels even better than those platforms.
  • dotjaz - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    who is this "most people"? I haven't seen them.
  • tamalero - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Depends on who yo see. I agree that most NON tech savy will buy the whole package again every time they have money and upgrade.
    But saying its "the majority"? Maybe in some first world countries.
    Being able to upgrade and swap parts was one of the staples of having a PC.
  • drothgery - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yeah, but most people don't buy a CPU, they buy a complete system. And some probably large fraction of the 2/3 that didn't buy a motherboard in the same order their new CPU probably bought a new motherboard elsewhere or in a separate order.
  • Tams80 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Well, considering until recently you had to replace your motherboard if you wanted any significant upgrade (Zen 2 has really been the only time that you haven't), of course most CPU purchases have been with a motherboard. Intel hardly offered much choice.
  • RollingCamel - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    AMD acknowledges the environmental benefit of extending a socket's lifetime. They should be recognized for it.
  • Flunk - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Intel's last 5 "generations" of CPUs all use the same number of data pins, they just make small phyiscal changes to the socket to prevent compatibility. Intel's constant socket changes are artificial and designed to require you to buy a new motherboard. They haven't released a truely new desktop CPU since the 6000 series.
  • kolasin2 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Agreed. While I have never upgraded a CPU in any system I have built over the last 20 years, I understand that some people do. Intel seems to artificially create these new sockets to inflate sales on their other components, like chipsets and NICs that are built onto the motherboards. I understand the need for a new socket when going from 2 different memory technologies, adding more cores, new iGPU designs, or adding / changing the PCI Express lanes. Intel hasn't done any of these things since the Skylake generation. There really is no reason for the socket to have changed since Skylake. Rocket Lake, in my mind, is the first CPU that Intel is releasing that would require a new socket in years.
  • JayNor - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    what do you think the extra 500 pins are for on Alder Lake-S?
  • dotjaz - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Congrats, you found one example that hasn't come to the market yet, Your definition of LAST FIVE si sure very unique.

    Just imagine how much wonder Intel can do upgrading from LGA 1156 to 1155 to 1150 to 1151 and to 1151 again! That MASSIVE 5 pin change must have been blowing your mind.
  • Tams80 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I'll just go and bu... oh, wait. I can't.
  • zanon - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    They've got a new socket coming, and chips will be starting to move over to requiring it in the next few releases (Epyc 4 'Genoa' for example will be the first of those to go to SP5). But a long run time on socket has its advantages, particularly for AMD. First and most obviously, it allows end users to potentially amortize their investments a bit more and upgrade to new chips more easily. But second, AMD hasn't been Intel, they've lacked the sway to just take for granted that mobo makes themselves would always rapidly adapt to anything they did. A stable platform has no doubt been helpful in ensuring a variety of decently solid options for buyers.
  • baka_toroi - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I don't think they make that many sacrifices. It's not like AM4 CPU compatibility spans every single motherboard and chipset. You still have to replace your 1st gen AM4 motherboard if you want to use Zen 3.

    AMD's socket policy seems quite sane and healthy. It's not like they'll continue using AM4 when Zen 4 is released.
  • Mr Perfect - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    The premise of five years of AM4 was great, but it did not turn out not sane and healthy. You can literally buy an AM4 CPU, plug it into an AM4 motherboard and have it not work! The compatibility matrix is a mess.

    I suspect a lot of that is down to the small BIOS chips that can't store five years worth of CPU microcode, but it's still a compatibly nightmare. Hopefully they require larger BIOS chips for AM5 and consumers will be able to use any AM5 CPU in any AM5 motherboard, because that's the real reason to keep a socket around for five years.
  • tamalero - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Compatibility is entirely dependent on the manufacturers and their insistence of using X sized bios files.
    Not to mention how flashy their motherboard bioses are.
    They could cutdown graphics on their bios to allow more cpus.
  • Makaveli - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Where have you been?

    Everyone knows this is the last processor on this socket. Were you expecting a new socket now just for zen3 then a new socket for Zen 4 and DDR 5?
  • nathanddrews - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I have to believe that AMD's decision to work within the bounds of the AM4 socket was in part a budgetary constraint. It *has to* be cheaper to design your new CPUs around a socket than to build a new socket with every CPU.
  • Hul8 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I think it also has the effect that AMD and the board partners can concentrate on premium motherboards on launch of a new line of CPUs (like it was with desktop Ryzen 3000/X570 launch); The budget options from the previous generation (B450) as well as more affordable predecessors (X470) are compatible with the processors so there is no rush for a complete lineup change.

    Not only does it allow board partners to upsell premium motherboards to customers who don't really need the features but want the "latest thing" (gaining AMD favor with the partners, and incentivizing lots of designs and competition), it also gives more time to iron out teething BIOS issues, only having to deal with a single chipset at a time.
  • kolasin2 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    In addition, I think it gives mobo manufacturers the ability to decouple their motherboard offerings from CPU releases. With Intel, you know you'll have a new Zx90 every other generation of CPU, since the socket changes. With AMD, board partners can focus on releasing their products knowing the socket won't change, so they do not need to be lockstep with AMD's release schedule. All they need to worry about is a BIOS update.
  • dotjaz - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Exactly what exactly did you sacrifice?
  • ZoZo - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    But the idea of someone having bought a 4-core 1st gen Ryzen with X370 motherboard being able to later go on the second-hand market to upgrade to a 12 or 16-core 3rd gen Ryzen for relatively cheap is pretty amazing.
  • IBM760XL - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Looks like you can watch the event from http://www.amd.com/en/events/gaming-2020, or https://t.co/hLv7CGFuQi .
  • IBM760XL - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    The latter was supposed to be http://youtube.com/amd . Dr. Su had a link-shortened version in her Tweet.
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Thank you so much for the link... It never occurred to me that AMD had a You Tube channel... Cheers matie!
  • zanon - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Looking forward as always to yours and Anand's coverage! Do you know if Milan will be covered in any more detail in this event as well since it's also Zen 3, or is that going to get something separate with the implementation focus here being purely Ryzen?
  • Unashamed_unoriginal_username_x86 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Doesn't Anand work at Apple now?
  • Ian Cutress - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yes. Author is at the top
  • zanon - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I was using "Anand" as lazy shorthand for AnandTech as in the site, with Dr. Cutress as the author. I remember when Anand himself moved on, and didn't mean to shortchange the current staff, quite the opposite!
  • philehidiot - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I'm glad they have decided to fix the laptop and desktop series naming issues by just going to 5000. Would have been so easy for them to be blind to the issue or, worse, abuse it and we end up with a naming convention that gives me a headache.
  • Hul8 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Watch them start alternating the series:

    - Zen 3 desktop (2020): 5000 series
    - Zen 3 mobile/APU (2021): 6000 series
    - Zen 4 desktop (2021?): 7000 series

    until they're at parity with the Radeon numbering (of whatever generation is current):

    - RDNA 1 (2019): RX 5000
    - RDNA 2 (2020): RX 6000
    - RDNA 3 (2021?): RX 7000

    I'm half joking - just had a thought of what they could do.
  • Makaveli - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Does this mean we will be seeing products reviews today after 12pm eastern?
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    It depends on whats in the AMD NDA... Whilst I would hope so, in reality I doubt it... I'm expecting actual limited availability launch with reviews to be available just before US holiday of Thanksgiving, with wider availability like the RTX 3800/3900... Limited, very limited esp for the higher end CPUs!
  • nevcairiel - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    AMD has historically done reviews on the same day as retail availability, and that won't be today.
  • James5mith - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Sadly my biggest hope is that what everyone is hinting at is true. They will finally unify architectural similar versions under standardized naming schemes.

    Zen2 in mobile is 4000, but Zen2 on desktop is 3000.

    Here's hoping that for Zen3, 5000 is the basic part number for both mobile and laptop. Skip ahead to dig themselves out of this horrible confusing naming scheme they backed themselves into.
  • psychobriggsy - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I'm certain AMD will mess numbering again fairly soon, if upcoming Zen 2 APUs like Van Gogh (and even Renoir Refresh/Lucienne) get given 5000 series numbering.
  • ArcadeEngineer - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    When they first put the stream up, it said 'AMD Ryzen 5000 Series Desktop Processor' at the end of the title.
  • nandnandnand - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Biggest hope? It doesn't matter that much, especially if you are here.
  • faizoff - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    I read that this is a pre-recorded event lasting a little over 24 mins. Is that usual for these kind of reveals?
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    In the time of pandemics, yes! See Xbox/PS5/RTX 3*** etc.
  • Vitor - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    A shame it wont be 5nm.
  • eek2121 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    A countdown to a countdown :D
  • Shii - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Those prices are hard to swallow. Guess AMD considers itself undisputed king?
  • Notagaintoday - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Eh? Just over a year ago, Intel was charging $2,000 for a slower CPU with a significantly higher power draw on a more expensive platform...

    Shilling really only ever works when there is something to shill for... For Intel, its clearly a further nail in the coffin, & from AMD, a company they dismissed as just gluing multiple CUPs together not that long ago!
  • phoenix_rizzen - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Wait, they're jumping from 3000 to 5000 on the desktop line of CPUs?

    Does this mean that mobile and desktop will both use the same series number, once the Zen 3-based Ryzen Mobile 5000 ships? That will simplify things a lot, if true.
  • Slash3 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Yes.
  • Brane2 - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    Why so much fapping over this ?
    It's incremental update which could be succinctly summed up as:
    - expected IPC rise
    - ECC RAM support
    - higher prices to reflect "top-dog" position.
  • croc - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    The phrase 'HEDT' was not uttered. The words 'EPYC', 'Milan' 'Threadripper' or 'Genesis peak' were not uttered. No news regarding socket / chipset sTRX4 / TRX40

    AM4 - ONE x16 PCI/e slot. So what do I choke? My RAID 0 card or my GPUs?
  • six_tymes - Thursday, October 8, 2020 - link

    fan boys rejoice!
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, October 10, 2020 - link

    9 pages on comments and no one mentioned the 19% IPC increase?

    lol
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