Once upon a time I made the mistake of buying a high-end PSU from a relatively new outfit that was created by former execs and engineers from a high-profile component manufacturer. Everything seemed brilliant. Excellent power characteristics with nary a ripple, fully modular design, it seemed fantastic. Two years later it crapped out on me taking a few components with it (yes it was hooked up to surge protectors and a UPS). When I went to go back to the manufacturer whatdya know, they were already gone. I was left in the lurch with several fried components and no recourse for my warranty. Never again, I will stick with the known quantities on PSUs. It is a far more important component than many give it credit for.
Had a Corsair PSU years back, started making a buzzing sound closer to the end of it's warranty. Corsair replaced it but the new PSU still made that buzzing sound. Bought a SeaSonic X650 back when it first came out for for $115-$120 (expensive b/c it was the first 80 plus gold at the time) and it has been rock solid without any electronic buzzing. I agree with your statement, I can't trust a new company either. Had a Nvidia graphics card fail and the company, BFG Tech disappeared. They offered a "life time warranty" and the card was barely past 2 years. No thanks. BFG Tech also sold PSUs and I was wondering if we are talking about the same company.
I had the 700 watt version as I was one of the suckers who thought my 8800 and Q6600 "needed" 700 watts. I figured if their top end version was among the best of the best, surely their 700 watt would be just as solid. Apparently not.
Anandtech and any other hardware reviewer can't really test long term reliability. They sample a single unit (potentially cherry picked by the vendor if the reviewer doesn't buy retail parts) which is never a statistically significant number and test it over the course of a short period of time. There's nothing AT can do to test for years' long operational capabilities.
I purchased a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 Quad 10 years ago based on an anandtech review. Still have it, still works, and it was on a miner 24/7 for 4 years.
That is a complete sophism, sorry it happened to you, the new kid on the block deceived you back then but that is a fallacious argument. I beleive MILLIONS peoples made money, great investments on what used to be new back in the days. My father used to invest in apple when it was new, some peeps went in to say ''this is a dangerous investment, we don't know nothing about them''. He also invested 1500$ on Bombardier back when it was a new company. He made 180k$ from that even if it was risky
The new honda accord 2017 is worse/better than the honda accord 2016, this is an example of a sophism, you can't use that as an argument.
If we base life on argumenting like that, maybe you shouldn't walk on the sideways, there are reports of people that died hit by a car or just slip on the ice.
Maybe you should move from your home if you have carpet/wood in it, there are reoprtedly homes that caught fire.
Maybe you should stop doing anything because there are reports about people getting in real danger doing just about anything in life including but not limited to: breathing, swimming, walking, looking at the sky, watching TV, sleeping, etc...
You know, life is risky, you won't get out of it. Don't try to dodge EVERY risky moves because well, your life WILL be boring. If you really care about risks, huddle in the corner, we'll feed you, give you protection and you'll live being 120 years old. But what a life...
Nobody cares that you had a PSU fail - there are plenty of new companies that make great products and there are plenty of old companies that make bad products.
Yeah, I bought a FSP (Fortran) 700 watt power supply in 2006 for my first dual core build. I could've swore that AnandTech had recommended the damn thing. Can't find a link to support that. Guess my memory is going. I tried out FSP as alternative when Antech was going through their QC issues. That PSU lasted maybe a year and then died in a puff of smoke. Was so pissed. Lot of money down the drain. I had bought a Seasonic PSU for my file server and liked it enough that I went to Seasonic for my main rig on my next build. I spend the money now for reliability as my boxes remain up 24/7. No more unknown cheap knock off brands for boxes.
I bought a Tagan when they first came out probably based on the review. 18 months laters in took out my motherboard and cpu. Probably £400 worth of damage, luckily i was next to it when it failed or else i could have started a fire.
On a side not i was working in an studio in London in the early 2000s and a few of the Dell workstations went up in smoke in spectacular fashion from damaged USB ports on the front. On one occasion one literally filled the studio with smoke in the 5 seconds it took for me to turn around and turn the machine off. It was a big studio, like a smoke bomb going off.
I. had the same 700 watt Tagan was a great PSU. 2007-2014 I got my money's out of it. Heck it powered a Q6600@3.8Ghz Geforce 9800 GT ,Radeon HD 4870x2,Georce 580 & 680 GTX cards all overclocked over the years. What finally got it was a spider crawled into it and zap a flash of light and system went off.
I took the cover off that's where I seen fried spider lol. I cleaned it up plugged it into a junker system and it worked fine. It worked two more years after the short out. Actually it still works I just upgraded to a newer unit. So either you got a bad unit or it was always running hot as the fans where small on those units. I was bummed when I found out they were gone.
BFG lasted from 2002 to 2010,when bought your card (2008 or later) they were a well established and highly recommended company at time; not an unknown upstart. And if their lifetime warranty was extravagant EVGA and XFX were both offering IIRC 5 years at the time. Both of the latter reduced theirs because of, and IIRC BFG was broken by, the rise of GPU compute and Crypto Coin mining resulting in much higher lifetime load times and consequently much higher than budgeted for failure rates.
The really long warranties were also semi-supported for by nVidia insisting on card makers taking large numbers of low end GPUs to get full access to the premium parts. This stuck them with more budget cards than they could easily sell, a number of them were used up providing warranty replacements for similar performing older high end cards. eg my GTX6800 was replaced with a GT8500 when 3 or 4 years old.
I owned a BFG 6600GT and that dates back to 2005 and then bought a 8800GT as well, which was before compute or CUDA cores. Wasn't until the 8800GTX that CUDA cores even came on the market. I don't even remember any notable use for compute back then, even wikipedia says Bitcoin was founded in 2009 and earliest reviews for the 8800GTX was 2006. Feels like BFG failed due to the warranties because GPUs start to fail en mass right after 2 years more so than over usage of compute for mining.
I thought bitcoin was a bit earlier, must've just been distributed computing projects that did them in. I jumped directly from my GT6800 to GTX260; at which point there were already a decent number of compute projects available to choose from (I'd been running CPU apps via BOINC for several years at that point).
Don't forget luck playing its usual tricks on us humans. Don't point all ur fingers at the manufaturer/brand alone. My Corsair HX520W is now entering its 10th year of service on my main and only PC. I have been changing and upgrading parts here and there, but I have never seen the need for more power, so I never change it just to see how far it would take me. Maybe one day I'll get something new for more efficiency, but right now I'm just happy it still runs.
The first gen Seasonic X series were great, I still have an X400. The latter though... About 1.5 years ago I had a X420 that blew first time I turned it on, and a replacement X400 that refused to turn on about a year later, in a file server that was on maybe 1% of the time. I can only hope the X650 I got instead will last longer.
"The 750W version has two extra PCI Express connectors, plus extra SATA and Molex connectors. Technically, the power rating difference does not really justify such a vast difference on the number of connectors, suggesting that Riotoro simply wanted to differentiate the target group of their two models."
The Molex/Sata connectors are almost certainly about differentiation. At potentially 150W per connector 4 6+2 GPU connectors are pushing the limit of what a 650W unit can provide so only putting 2 of them on the smaller one isn't unreasonable. OTOH if they wanted they could've added a single 8 pin GPU connector or 2x 6 pins within the output headroom.
It's the span of the wattage that makes it difficult. Not only does the circuitry have to handle generating 50w, it also has to put out 500+ with the exact same design. I'm sure they could design a dual-mode power supply, which has two stages (similar to Arm's BIG.little core designs), but then that's extra components and extra cost, and ultimately for what?
Saving 8w of power?
8w of power @ 24/7 is hardly one kw/hr - so it would save you 10c per week, but cost you an extra 50$ for the PSU. That means you'd recoup the savings in 10 years. :)
The short version is yes. The hardest part of the latest 80+ standard (the first to set a 10% target in addition to the 20-100% ones) is getting the losses from all the fixed power components down, not getting an extra percent or two of efficiency at full load.
Broadly speaking your power losses are made up of the sum of a fixed value that's constant when the PSU is turned on and one that grows linearly with power used. Turning the fan on/up and extra losses from hotter parts are why it begins to dip down again at max load.
When I first looked the these units, I thought of my old Corsair HX620 because these look identical to me with the red stickers on black. I remember when those old 620's being one of Corsairs 1st higher end PS, and mines still runs. Hopefully these units will be similar, and provide some good competition.
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fanofanand - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Once upon a time I made the mistake of buying a high-end PSU from a relatively new outfit that was created by former execs and engineers from a high-profile component manufacturer. Everything seemed brilliant. Excellent power characteristics with nary a ripple, fully modular design, it seemed fantastic. Two years later it crapped out on me taking a few components with it (yes it was hooked up to surge protectors and a UPS). When I went to go back to the manufacturer whatdya know, they were already gone. I was left in the lurch with several fried components and no recourse for my warranty. Never again, I will stick with the known quantities on PSUs. It is a far more important component than many give it credit for.feelingshorter - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Had a Corsair PSU years back, started making a buzzing sound closer to the end of it's warranty. Corsair replaced it but the new PSU still made that buzzing sound. Bought a SeaSonic X650 back when it first came out for for $115-$120 (expensive b/c it was the first 80 plus gold at the time) and it has been rock solid without any electronic buzzing. I agree with your statement, I can't trust a new company either. Had a Nvidia graphics card fail and the company, BFG Tech disappeared. They offered a "life time warranty" and the card was barely past 2 years. No thanks. BFG Tech also sold PSUs and I was wondering if we are talking about the same company.fanofanand - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Nope, the company was Tagan, and I bought it based off this review (Gee thanks Anandtech.....)http://www.anandtech.com/show/2357
I had the 700 watt version as I was one of the suckers who thought my 8800 and Q6600 "needed" 700 watts. I figured if their top end version was among the best of the best, surely their 700 watt would be just as solid. Apparently not.
BrokenCrayons - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Anandtech and any other hardware reviewer can't really test long term reliability. They sample a single unit (potentially cherry picked by the vendor if the reviewer doesn't buy retail parts) which is never a statistically significant number and test it over the course of a short period of time. There's nothing AT can do to test for years' long operational capabilities.fanofanand - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Oh I know, I'm not actually blaming Anandtech, just taking a cheap shot. :)Samus - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
I purchased a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 Quad 10 years ago based on an anandtech review. Still have it, still works, and it was on a miner 24/7 for 4 years.fanofanand - Friday, March 24, 2017 - link
Cool story but how is that relevant? PC Power and Cooling wasn't an unknown entity ten years ago.Galid - Monday, March 27, 2017 - link
That is a complete sophism, sorry it happened to you, the new kid on the block deceived you back then but that is a fallacious argument. I beleive MILLIONS peoples made money, great investments on what used to be new back in the days. My father used to invest in apple when it was new, some peeps went in to say ''this is a dangerous investment, we don't know nothing about them''. He also invested 1500$ on Bombardier back when it was a new company. He made 180k$ from that even if it was riskyThe new honda accord 2017 is worse/better than the honda accord 2016, this is an example of a sophism, you can't use that as an argument.
If we base life on argumenting like that, maybe you shouldn't walk on the sideways, there are reports of people that died hit by a car or just slip on the ice.
Maybe you should move from your home if you have carpet/wood in it, there are reoprtedly homes that caught fire.
Maybe you should stop doing anything because there are reports about people getting in real danger doing just about anything in life including but not limited to: breathing, swimming, walking, looking at the sky, watching TV, sleeping, etc...
Galid - Monday, March 27, 2017 - link
You know, life is risky, you won't get out of it. Don't try to dodge EVERY risky moves because well, your life WILL be boring. If you really care about risks, huddle in the corner, we'll feed you, give you protection and you'll live being 120 years old. But what a life...Ascaris - Sunday, April 9, 2017 - link
"You know, life is risky, you won't get out of it."You contradict yourself. If life is risky, how is he going to live forever as you say?
Cellar Door - Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - link
Nobody cares that you had a PSU fail - there are plenty of new companies that make great products and there are plenty of old companies that make bad products.Aaannnndd nobody cares what you are going to do.
t4murphy - Sunday, March 26, 2017 - link
Same here. Been using my 750 silencer for 9 yrs. Couple SLI builds and MoBo no. 5 still going strongBrokenCrayons - Friday, March 24, 2017 - link
Aw, be nice to them. They get a lot of unwarranted abuse from people already.bigboxes - Friday, March 24, 2017 - link
Yeah, I bought a FSP (Fortran) 700 watt power supply in 2006 for my first dual core build. I could've swore that AnandTech had recommended the damn thing. Can't find a link to support that. Guess my memory is going. I tried out FSP as alternative when Antech was going through their QC issues. That PSU lasted maybe a year and then died in a puff of smoke. Was so pissed. Lot of money down the drain. I had bought a Seasonic PSU for my file server and liked it enough that I went to Seasonic for my main rig on my next build. I spend the money now for reliability as my boxes remain up 24/7. No more unknown cheap knock off brands for boxes.kn00tcn - Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - link
fsp is known to be one of the highest quality makers together with seasonic, both of them are suppliers to other brands like corsairyou people with your ignorance & single model failure stories that somehow represent an entire brand...
lefizz - Monday, March 27, 2017 - link
I bought a Tagan when they first came out probably based on the review. 18 months laters in took out my motherboard and cpu. Probably £400 worth of damage, luckily i was next to it when it failed or else i could have started a fire.On a side not i was working in an studio in London in the early 2000s and a few of the Dell workstations went up in smoke in spectacular fashion from damaged USB ports on the front. On one occasion one literally filled the studio with smoke in the 5 seconds it took for me to turn around and turn the machine off. It was a big studio, like a smoke bomb going off.
rocky12345 - Thursday, March 30, 2017 - link
I. had the same 700 watt Tagan was a great PSU. 2007-2014 I got my money's out of it. Heck it powered a Q6600@3.8Ghz Geforce 9800 GT ,Radeon HD 4870x2,Georce 580 & 680 GTX cards all overclocked over the years. What finally got it was a spider crawled into it and zap a flash of light and system went off.I took the cover off that's where I seen fried spider lol. I cleaned it up plugged it into a junker system and it worked fine. It worked two more years after the short out. Actually it still works I just upgraded to a newer unit. So either you got a bad unit or it was always running hot as the fans where small on those units. I was bummed when I found out they were gone.
DanNeely - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
BFG lasted from 2002 to 2010,when bought your card (2008 or later) they were a well established and highly recommended company at time; not an unknown upstart. And if their lifetime warranty was extravagant EVGA and XFX were both offering IIRC 5 years at the time. Both of the latter reduced theirs because of, and IIRC BFG was broken by, the rise of GPU compute and Crypto Coin mining resulting in much higher lifetime load times and consequently much higher than budgeted for failure rates.DanNeely - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
The really long warranties were also semi-supported for by nVidia insisting on card makers taking large numbers of low end GPUs to get full access to the premium parts. This stuck them with more budget cards than they could easily sell, a number of them were used up providing warranty replacements for similar performing older high end cards. eg my GTX6800 was replaced with a GT8500 when 3 or 4 years old.feelingshorter - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
I owned a BFG 6600GT and that dates back to 2005 and then bought a 8800GT as well, which was before compute or CUDA cores. Wasn't until the 8800GTX that CUDA cores even came on the market. I don't even remember any notable use for compute back then, even wikipedia says Bitcoin was founded in 2009 and earliest reviews for the 8800GTX was 2006. Feels like BFG failed due to the warranties because GPUs start to fail en mass right after 2 years more so than over usage of compute for mining.DanNeely - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
I thought bitcoin was a bit earlier, must've just been distributed computing projects that did them in. I jumped directly from my GT6800 to GTX260; at which point there were already a decent number of compute projects available to choose from (I'd been running CPU apps via BOINC for several years at that point).kn00tcn - Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - link
xfx may have been the second 'lifetime' or 'double lifetime' brand, though i'm not sure if that was before the amd switch in 2008/2009eriri-el - Friday, March 24, 2017 - link
Don't forget luck playing its usual tricks on us humans. Don't point all ur fingers at the manufaturer/brand alone. My Corsair HX520W is now entering its 10th year of service on my main and only PC. I have been changing and upgrading parts here and there, but I have never seen the need for more power, so I never change it just to see how far it would take me. Maybe one day I'll get something new for more efficiency, but right now I'm just happy it still runs.Sivar - Saturday, March 25, 2017 - link
SeaSonic probably made your Corsair, too.nagi603 - Sunday, March 26, 2017 - link
The first gen Seasonic X series were great, I still have an X400. The latter though... About 1.5 years ago I had a X420 that blew first time I turned it on, and a replacement X400 that refused to turn on about a year later, in a file server that was on maybe 1% of the time. I can only hope the X650 I got instead will last longer.kn00tcn - Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - link
bfg was a dominant nvidia partner like evga is now, to call it some random new company is a complete insult & total ignoranceto not know that many corsair psus are/were built by seasonic is also ignorance
DanNeely - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
"The 750W version has two extra PCI Express connectors, plus extra SATA and Molex connectors. Technically, the power rating difference does not really justify such a vast difference on the number of connectors, suggesting that Riotoro simply wanted to differentiate the target group of their two models."The Molex/Sata connectors are almost certainly about differentiation. At potentially 150W per connector 4 6+2 GPU connectors are pushing the limit of what a 650W unit can provide so only putting 2 of them on the smaller one isn't unreasonable. OTOH if they wanted they could've added a single 8 pin GPU connector or 2x 6 pins within the output headroom.
Shadowmaster625 - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
Is it that difficult to make a power supply that doesnt give away 10 watts when your machine is idling at 42W?bill.rookard - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
It's the span of the wattage that makes it difficult. Not only does the circuitry have to handle generating 50w, it also has to put out 500+ with the exact same design. I'm sure they could design a dual-mode power supply, which has two stages (similar to Arm's BIG.little core designs), but then that's extra components and extra cost, and ultimately for what?Saving 8w of power?
8w of power @ 24/7 is hardly one kw/hr - so it would save you 10c per week, but cost you an extra 50$ for the PSU. That means you'd recoup the savings in 10 years. :)
DanNeely - Thursday, March 23, 2017 - link
The short version is yes. The hardest part of the latest 80+ standard (the first to set a 10% target in addition to the 20-100% ones) is getting the losses from all the fixed power components down, not getting an extra percent or two of efficiency at full load.Broadly speaking your power losses are made up of the sum of a fixed value that's constant when the PSU is turned on and one that grows linearly with power used. Turning the fan on/up and extra losses from hotter parts are why it begins to dip down again at max load.
kn00tcn - Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - link
it's a percentage, wait til you find out how much is wasted when idling on a 1500w psuShowtime - Saturday, April 22, 2017 - link
When I first looked the these units, I thought of my old Corsair HX620 because these look identical to me with the red stickers on black. I remember when those old 620's being one of Corsairs 1st higher end PS, and mines still runs. Hopefully these units will be similar, and provide some good competition.